I’m having a bit of a problem so I’m looking for some help.
I’ve got a one-and-a-half-year-old GSD who is extremely well-trained. He listens to my every word, hardly ever misbehaves, and is really social with people, but there’s a slight snag. He hasn't let me stroke him for the last three days.
I’m the pack leader and he knows it. He’s 100% obedient, and when he does something wrong and I "punish" him, he doesn't grumble. I’ve never hit him, not even a smack on the bum, so no, he isn't scared of me. I can even touch him when we're playing—we often have a bit of a rough and tumble where he mouths a jacket I use specifically for that; I push him, he chases me and vice versa. But as soon as I say the word "cuddle" and try to stroke him, it’s impossible—he shows his teeth. This happened once before about a month ago; it lasted five days and then everything went back to normal on its own. But I just don't understand this behaviour. I don't bother him when he’s eating or sleeping. With other people, whether they're strangers, family, or friends, he doesn't mind at all—they can stroke him without any issues. He actually loves a fuss and is really gentle; even if they say the word "cuddle", there's no problem. I’d really appreciate it if anyone could shed some light on this, please.
Thanks!
Translated from French
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There are certain gestures that you might see as a sign of respect, but which a dog sees as a sign of weakness.
But that’s just your take on it :) When you have a good relationship with your dog—one that I believe should be based on collaboration, understanding, and listening, rather than power or force—weakness doesn't even come into it. If I follow your logic, @flip, does that mean if someone backs away because their dog growls, they are "weak" in the dog's eyes? In that case, should you just push on and force them to be stroked? To me, being weak is actually about losing control of your impulses—anger, fear, and so on. If we’re supposed to set an example for our pets, we aren't exactly setting a good one by giving in to those kinds of negative emotions.
Yes, of course it’s just my view. Just as your assertion above is based entirely on yours. What you define as a sign of respect might not be interpreted that way by someone else. It’s all relative.
You’re getting a bit hung up on the whole "power/force" thing and making automatic associations. I get the impression that, to you, a power struggle is always something bad or unhealthy. Whereas for me, power dynamics are much more subtle; they are perfectly natural and present in every social group of all living beings (humans included, obviously). Dogs actually handle these natural dynamics instinctively among themselves.
The way you’ve phrased that question is, once again, a bit too black and white. There are so many factors to take into account. And the link you’re making is also a bit flawed. Not backing away doesn’t mean you’re forcing a pat.
Being firm and determined doesn’t mean giving in to fear or anger. Nor does sticking to your principles and rules.
Anyway, I think this would be a long conversation to have over a few pints or a nice glass of wine ;)
I’m in two minds about this.
I think this dog’s growling points to two things:
- An issue with trust and the bond with the owner. This obviously won’t be fixed by forcing affection on them; it’s about trying to understand what the dog likes and dislikes and strengthening your communication.
- AND an issue with respect for the owner’s authority. My dogs would NEVER growl at me, even if I have to force physical contact they don’t like (for medical treatment, for instance). They did growl at me when they were puppies (like when I was trying to get something out of their mouths), but it was immediately corrected. No, they didn’t "move up to the next level" (attacking without growling); on the contrary, they learned that they were more likely to be heard by using passive communication (calming signals), and also that certain things aren't up for negotiation (like if I need to take something out of their mouth...) and they just have to put up with it.
Basically, my view is that you can insist on medical care, and it’s a good thing to teach a dog to accept that sometimes unpleasant things are necessary, even without prior desensitisation—they simply don't have a choice.
But you obviously don't force a stroke or a bit of affection. A bond and trust are built; they can’t be forced.
My dogs know the difference perfectly well. They might "sulk" when I’m treating them (they just grin and bear it), but they’ll quite happily come looking for a cuddle two minutes later.
There are certain gestures that you might see as a sign of respect, but for a dog, they can be a sign of weakness.
But that’s just your perspective :) when you have a good relationship with your dog—which for me isn't based on power or force, but on collaboration, understanding, and listening—it’s not a question of weakness.
If I follow your logic, @flip, does that mean if someone steps back because their dog growls, they’re weak in the dog's eyes? Should you just push through and force a stroke in that case?
To me, being weak is actually letting yourself get carried away by your impulses—anger, fear, and so on. If we’re supposed to be setting an example for our pets, we aren't exactly setting a good one by giving in to those negative emotions.
I’m very mindful of my dog’s needs and what he’s telling me. But for me, the priority is that he’s aware of the boundaries in our household. I don't agree with your conclusion at all that telling him off for growling shuts down communication. On the contrary, I think you ARE communicating, rather than just listening to your dog. That doesn’t mean you shouldn’t listen. But for a balanced relationship, you need to hold your own too and tell him what’s allowed and what isn't.
And I’d even differentiate between growls, as many are just little grumbles that aren’t on the same level at all for me.
But anyway, you know I have a very natural and straightforward approach, whether it’s with dogs or anyone else! 😁
I think this is where our views are going to differ. My approach is to earn the dog's trust by respecting their consent and using positive ways to persuade them that a pat on the head isn't actually that bad—it can even be really lovely.
In my opinion, if it gets to the point of growling, it means the human-dog relationship has been a total breakdown in communication for a lonnnng time. If I were to punish a growl, my dog would express themselves even less (given I wasn't listening to them anyway...) and I'd no longer be able to "talk" to them to win them over. It would just become a monologue: "I want to stroke you, so I'm stroking you," and the dog thinking, "I'll keep quiet because if I say I don't like it, I'll get told off."
As I said earlier, I like my dogs to be able to say "no" and to have a bit of a give-and-take relationship.
When something is important to me, they know it and they make the effort in the moment. They don't think about saying no; they might moan or express themselves, but they'll accept having their ears cleaned, their nails clipped, etc. I sympathise with them, explaining that it's nearly finished and praising them for their composure, because there are some things where I know if I were in their shoes, I’d have absolutely kicked off by now.
Hello Leelee, this wasn't aimed at you personally. I've watched the video and my response was more a reaction to the link itself than to your comments. I struggle with the 'dog-centric' approach; I think it blurs natural human behaviour. The part about decoding dog body language is useful, but the rest... not so much.
In my view: a respected dog doesn't growl.
Hmm, I don't think that's really applicable across the board.
What respect means to you won't be the same for everyone, or for the dog. There are certain gestures that you might see as a sign of respect, but a dog could see as a sign of weakness.
Hi flip,
I don’t really follow your reply, I said exactly the same thing as kainate in my quoted post:
"- How do you stroke your dog? Which part of the body? What kind of movement (proper stroking, massage, etc.)? What kind of strokes does he usually prefer (the sort of thing an owner would usually know about their dog)?
- Does he show any calming signals (there are plenty of videos on YouTube about this if you’re not sure what they are) when you try to stroke him, before he starts growling?"
What are you trying to tell me 😅?
My take: a dog that is respected doesn’t growl.
Do you know if he enjoys being stroked? Which spots, etc.? https://youtu.be/1AcEasCZPSc Have you tried approaching from below? (chest, chin, cheek, back of the head, head) without putting your hand over the top of his head—keep your hand open and come from underneath?
Yes, but Leelee, normally the bond should be such that the dog doesn't growl. His head, his eyes, and sometimes his body language should show how he's feeling, but he shouldn't be growling and baring his teeth.
If he lets other people stroke him but not you, then it’s clearly something to do with you. Why though? TRY stroking him at the same time as someone else so he doesn't realise it’s you, and see how he reacts once he notices you're the one doing it.
