3-month-old puppy driving us mad

Anonymous user Icon representing the flag French

04/10/2016, 21:33

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Evening all,

I’m posting here because my partner and I are feeling a bit desperate. We’ve had a 3-month-old White Swiss Shepherd puppy for 10 days now; he’s adorable and loves playing and learning new things with us, but our big problem is that he gets worked up and goes into these proper crazy spells! He starts biting us, whether it’s our hands, trousers, T-shirts when we bend down, or our slippers, shoes and socks when we try to ignore him! We’ve tried everything, like trying to redirect his attention to a toy he’s allowed to bite—that worked the first couple of times, but now he just ignores it completely and focuses only on us. We’ve tried ignoring him, but he follows us and won’t stop biting our feet when we stand up or walk away. I’ve even tried holding him by the scruff or his muzzle as I was advised, but he just starts up again even worse as soon as I let go and he struggles. At the moment, the only way to calm him down is to put him out in the garden; he just lies by the door waiting for us to let him back in, but once we do, he’s straight back at it, biting us or trying to jump on the sofa or the bed even though they are off-limits. No matter how much we say 'no', he reacts as if we’re encouraging him and makes it even worse—it’s like he doesn't understand the word 'no' at all!

Please help us, we don’t know what to do anymore. We’ve followed every bit of advice we could find and nothing is working, and I’m not exaggerating when I say he bites—it’s not just nipping, he’s actually biting! He’s already ruined a pair of shoes, two T-shirts and a pair of trousers, not to mention all the marks he’s left on our hands or our faces when we lean down. I really don’t want to hurt him. How should we handle this kind of extreme behaviour?

Thanks in advance.

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Docline

09/10/2016, 03:50

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In my opinion, the word "no" shouldn't be overused; it needs to be 100% effective for serious situations.

I don't say "no" very often, but I've never seen a puppy fail to react to a sharp, firm "NO" that comes out like a bullet.

Keep going with the redirection technique towards his own toys. (You can reclaim your belongings with a quick "that's mine!" followed by giving him one of his own toys—using his name, of course). However, the redirection needs to be done with plenty of enthusiasm; you can't just leave him to his own devices with a toy when he’s trying to involve you in his games. With a dog this age, you've got a bit of an "obligation" to play!

It feels like your pup is desperate to make you his playmates, so do him a favour and indulge him more often.

When it comes to him nipping people, however, you need to let out a high-pitched yelp, walk away "in a huff", and leave him entirely alone for a few minutes. He'll eventually get the message that he needs to keep that behaviour in check.

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Humeur-de-chien Icon representing the flag French

08/10/2016, 00:02

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Hi @Inf49,

We’ve tried ignoring him, but he follows us and won’t stop biting our feet when we stand up or move away.

Ignoring the behaviour is indeed often suggested in these cases, but it's actually a mistake. On this point, I quite agree with Nico’s response, except for the fact that it’s a bit incomplete.

I’d suggest checking out this article to find out more: http://comportements-chien.blogspot.fr/2015/08/chien-qui-mordille-controle-et.html

I’ve tried grabbing him by the scruff of the neck or by the muzzle as I was advised.

You can completely forget about that advice. That is not how you’re going to work on teaching your puppy bite inhibition.

No matter how much we say "no", he reacts as if we’re encouraging him and makes it even worse; he doesn't seem to understand the word "no" at all!

That’s probably because he doesn’t yet understand what behaviour he’s supposed to adopt when he hears that word. And he won’t figure it out on his own.

First, ask yourself what your dog has to gain from stopping a behaviour when you say "no". Because clearly, if he’s always the loser in the situation, it’s not going to motivate him to listen to you.

More details here: http://comportements-chien.blogspot.fr/2015/09/relation-homme-chien-communication.html

How should I react to this excessive behaviour?

If you find that you're still not getting anywhere despite the advice you've received, don't hesitate to contact a dog behaviourist.

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Energiesolaire Icon representing the flag French

07/10/2016, 21:40

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Well, I don’t agree with the "no" command at all—not one bit.

What exactly is it you don't agree with? Because reading the rest of your post, it isn't actually that obvious.

In any case, one thing is certain: something as vital as "No" can (and in my opinion, "should") be approached from several different angles.

It works really well on walks where she doesn't just eat whatever she finds anyway! We often walk on paths used by horses, so there are droppings everywhere. With a "no, leave it", she doesn't touch a thing!

The proof is in the pudding. Marrote is very pragmatic. Theoretical debates only go so far when it comes to dog training.

Hi,

Personally, I feel that what Maroune is describing is more like a "wait" and what Nico78888 describes is a "no": if you put a treat under the dog's nose, say no, and then give them that same treat later, they haven't given it up, they've just waited for it. On the other hand, if you put a treat under their nose, say no, and once they've given up on it you give them a DIFFERENT treat, then that's more of a real "no", because they didn't actually get the thing they were told "no" for, but they were still rewarded anyway.

And for me, you see, what Nico is referring to sounds much more like a "Leave it", or "Drop it", or "Give". But anyway.

No means no. Sometimes it's "give it back", sometimes it's "don't touch". Basically, No = "Whatever you’re thinking about doing, love, forget it. And no treat as a reward. It’s just No and that’s that."

I only showed a "snippet" of my approach to teaching "no". Ah, right, I'm starting to see now. And Niko took that as if it were the whole 360-degree approach. Not at all.

The Shiba (I can only speak for this breed), well, they have a mind of their own. In my video, he wants the sardine, and I say no so he doesn't eat it. It's the start of a very fundamental dialogue where I'm simply challenging his will. Now, I'm not daft enough to believe that this "exercise" (because that's all it is—it's not a method, it's not a book, it's not a whole philosophy) is enough on its own to give us a bulletproof "No".

And the "No" I was referring to applies specifically to the subject of this discussion. Inf49 has a dog that sometimes mouths everything and anything. I imagine he probably jumps up at people too. Honestly, a dog doesn't deserve a treat for that; there's no need to give him something else instead. It's just "No", he has to stop and that's it. Obviously, this is all assuming the dog has everything he needs in terms of exercise, nutrition, etc. If my dog hasn't had enough exercise, I'll have to repeat "no" a hundred times a minute. If he's hungry, well, he'll be hunting all over the flat—he is a hunting dog, after all.

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sky

07/10/2016, 11:38

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Hi,

Personally, I think what Maroune is describing is more like a "wait", whereas what Nico78888 describes is more like a "no". If you put a treat right under the dog's nose, say "no", and then give them that same treat afterwards, they haven't actually given up on the treat—they’ve just waited for it. On the other hand, if you put a treat in front of them, say "no", and once they've given up on it you give them a DIFFERENT treat, then that’s more of a proper "no", because they didn't actually get the thing they were told "no" for, but they still got rewarded for listening anyway.

Basically:

With Maroune's method, the dog learns that when you say "no", if they just wait, they still get what they want, so for me that’s more of a "wait" than a "no".

With Nico78888's method, they learn that if they give up on the thing they were told "no" for, they get something else instead and won't just wait around to be given the original thing. They aren't waiting; they're giving up, so it's a proper "no".

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Anonymous user Icon representing the flag French

07/10/2016, 10:27

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Well, I actually think this technique is pretty good! It’s not a con at all, because the dog has to wait for our signal to get the reward. He quickly learns that no means no, and that when we give the "yes, go on then" cue, he gets his treat because he waited for the signal – just like he has to wait for our say-so to get his food bowl, and for loads of other things. It works really well on walks and she doesn’t just eat any old thing! We often walk on paths used by horses, so there’s plenty of horse poo around. With a "no, leave it", she won’t touch it! At the end of the day, everyone has their own views and training methods; the main thing is finding what works for your own puppy and what they respond to best.

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Anonymous user Icon representing the flag French

07/10/2016, 00:23

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Well, I completely disagree with the use of "no" – I really do. The method @Maroune mentioned is basically an incomplete version of "leave it" training. You offer something (a bit of dry food, whatever), you promise it on the condition that the dog leaves it, and then you give it to him. The result? The dog finds something to scavenge off the floor, you say "no", you pick it up, and he gets nothing. The dog is going to realise verrrry quickly that he's being conned; for him, "no" starts as a promise until he figures out it's all just hot air and he shouldn't listen to a rubbish command that gives him nothing in return. To make this method work, you need to add something else: ANOTHER REWARD. You have to swap what he’s giving up for something at least as good, if not better. And you need MASSIVE consistency, especially with a youngster who doesn't have any self-control yet. It's already a tricky technique if you want to do it properly. It's only much, much later that the dog will understand that "no" isn't a promise, as you phase out the rewards until you're just giving him a pat. Let's be honest, with most dogs, you've got no chance of that happening in the first two years. The simplest options are either negative reinforcement (taking something away to show him he's done wrong via the "no", but that requires knowing the principles behind it), or showing him that "no" means "no". You can do this easily with a puppy that isn't a fan of water, for example. He’s waiting at the door, wanting to charge in like a maniac as soon as it opens; two or three squirts from a water pistol on the nose while saying NO, and he'll understand "no" pretty quickly. Guaranteed for life.

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Energiesolaire Icon representing the flag French

06/10/2016, 23:40

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I totally agree, Maroune. I’d even go as far as saying we should try to control our dogs physically as little as possible, and rely on commands as much as we can, to give them more chances to learn. For example, when mine jumps up on someone (she’s 6 months old), I try a few "nos" before physically stopping her. In my opinion, "no" and its opposite are the most important commands. A huge part of the training process relies on that. It's only once you're 100% certain those two words (or other cues) are understood that you actually know whether the dog is being disobedient or not. In my case, she gets far too excited when she meets someone who uses a high-pitched voice and reaches out to her. She clearly ignores me then. That’s where I’m at right now :) My goal is for her to sit every single time and wait for my permission (guilty, I’m a bit of a control freak lol). As for "yes"—that’s incredibly important too. It helps the puppy overcome fears, for example. One evening, Sana had a temperature. She wouldn’t eat or drink, and I was worried. I wanted her to at least have some water. I put down a bowl of water, but she stayed lying down. Didn't budge. I thought, "Oh really? I'll try giving you water in a bowl you've never seen before." I figured she wouldn't be able to resist because she's so curious. Still didn't budge :( I kept repeating "yessss, yessss" in my high-pitched voice. After some coaxing, she hesitated, got up very slowly with her ears down, and went over to drink a decent amount of water.

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Anonymous user Icon representing the flag French

06/10/2016, 22:00

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I also think he doesn't understand what "no" means. Here’s a really simple exercise my behaviourist taught me for the "no" command: take a bit of dry food or a treat in the palm of your hand and hold it under your dog’s nose. He’ll sniff it and obviously try to eat it; that's when you say "no". Pull your hand away and then show it to him again: same thing, "no!". Only give it to him when he just sniffs it or looks away, and at that moment say "yessss" in a happy voice and let him have his reward. The goal is to show it to him and say "no" if he tries to grab it without your permission, and "yes" when he's waited a bit. You can add "no, leave it" or "no, don't touch" and "yes, go on" or "yes, you can have it" – basically add whatever you like after the "no" and "yes". Always use a firm "no" and a cheerful "yes", as your tone of voice is really important. For the nipping, making a high-pitched yelp is effective, and then just ignore him. Or you can redirect him with a toy, always saying "no" first, and then "yes" once he’s got the toy in his mouth. Another important thing is to take him out more often so your puppy can burn off some steam and get tired out from his walks. He won’t have the energy left to pester you and he’ll be much calmer.

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