We’ve had our male Eurasier puppy for 12 days now, so he’s 10 weeks old, and we’ve been really struggling with him every evening for the last few days.
I should mention that at the start, the breeder told us to keep him in a 3ft crate at night and for 2 hours after his meals. But since he was barking his head off every night, and I was worried about whether he could actually hold it in all night, I eventually started taking him out every 3 hours or so. I figured he just couldn't hold his bladder. But as soon as I put him back in the crate, it was the same thing again—barking for at least 10 minutes. We finally reached breaking point with the crate when he started barking every 2 hours. We couldn't just ignore him like the breeder suggested, especially since he was covered in pee by the morning. I called a dog trainer who told me to ditch the crate (she’s not a fan, I should add) as it seemed to be stressing him out. She suggested starting from scratch: letting him sleep in the living room (he prefers the floor tiles to his bed) and sleeping in the room with him for a week to reassure him. We’ve done that and he’s lovely; he doesn't even wake up during the night and manages to hold it from 11pm until 6am.
But here’s the problem: for several evenings now, after his dinner and a quick toilet walk, Cosmo gets really hyper once we’re back inside. He jumps on us, on the sofa, and bites us quite hard. Nothing works: not saying ‘no’ (which I don't think he understands anyway), not trying to redirect him with a toy, nor ignoring him (which is hard because he goes for your feet and calves). Even leaving the room doesn't work, as he just starts again the moment we come back. We’ve tried putting him in the downstairs loo (since we’re not using the crate anymore), but he just goes right back to it as soon as he’s out. We’re at our wits' end, and my husband and daughter are actually starting to get scared of him because he’s so persistent with the biting. We read that we should tire him out, but since these ‘episodes’ happen right after his meal, we’re worried about the risk of bloat. Other than that, we take him out regularly during the day for toilet breaks, plus two longer walks in the morning and late afternoon around the block (about 20 minutes each time, at his own pace).
So, that’s the situation. We really need your advice because we’re struggling to cope. This is our first dog so we’re not used to this, and with the lockdown, there are no puppy classes or home visits from trainers available...
Translated from French
The forum content is sometimes translated from another language, and posts may concern countries with different animal laws. Do your research before making any decisions.
Since the forum is translated by AI, the translations may contain errors.
Hi @Nordic Attitude and everyone,
I’ve watched that video and it’s very similar to what I saw on a dog training show by an animal rescue charity. The trainer used a pinch on the scruff and held the muzzle shut to stop the mouthing, and kept going until the Samoyed ended up licking his hand instead of nipping.
I have another question: why do people always talk about "primitive dogs"? The Eurasier is in the "Spitz and Primitive types" category, but it seems to me that it’s more of a Spitz (a cross between a Chow Chow, a Keeshond and a Samoyed) than a primitive Nordic type, isn't it? Besides, they were originally bred to be the "ideal" family dog, so they're quite different from a Nordic breed or an Akita (which I’d never have chosen, to be honest, as a first-time owner). So, I’m wondering if you have to train them like a "Nordic" dog, or is it much of a muchness since they are part Spitz?
To go back to the point about never giving up: in practical terms, if he doesn’t "sit", do we just keep at it until he does? But how? Because for one thing, he’s a puppy and hasn't fully taken it all in yet, and for another, what do we do if he just turns away and wanders off without sitting? Do we chase after him???
I keep reading the expression "an iron fist in a velvet glove" regarding his training. Could someone explain what that actually means in practice? Ideally with some examples of situations and how to react. Thanks so much for being so patient with me!
This video is totally incomplete @Nordic Attitude; it doesn't show the love and patience a mother dog puts into licking her puppies' bellies when they are completely relaxed and happy to let her.
There is a whole history and bond between a mother and her pup. Something like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujgopjFCyzM
This gesture, from this dog towards her pups, doesn't just come out of the blue; it’s part of a very specific relationship.
It’s a world away from suddenly getting it into your head that you should pin your puppy down to stop them nipping or mounting and using force to do so. In fact, this dog isn't using force to get the puppy on its back here. She mimics a neck-hold and the puppy lies down by itself. She might hold it there afterwards, sure, but it lay down on its own.
Another video showing the kind of patience a mother can have:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08einOI3wlo
She could just walk over, grab the puppy by the scruff and pin it down just like that, out of the blue. But she doesn't.
In my opinion, suggesting that a human—especially one who isn't confident with dog body language—should try to copy this is a massive mistake.
Here’s a little example to illustrate that "pinning your dog on its back" doesn't mean much on its own. It's all the body language and communication surrounding it (which we don't necessarily know how to carry out) that gives meaning to the act and ensures it's interpreted correctly.
https://youtu.be/C-TNMBL1U9M
In this video, you can see the little black and white dog "pinning" the other one on its back several times. Well, "pinning"... it's about as much of a pin as one wrestler would do to another. It’s all for show. The other dog lets itself be pinned. It isn’t really the black and white dog's strength that allows the pin to happen; the other one is completely willing.
And yet... it's all just play.
Depending on how you pin your puppy, they might well think you’re just trying to play with them.
Or that you’re attacking them for no reason, take your pick.
The likelihood of them understanding that you’re doing it to correct their nipping is actually quite low, if you haven’t mastered all the communication that goes with it.
If you want an example of an aggressive pin, here is one between captive ADULT wolves: https://youtu.be/1okpf8B73Wc
Are you really sure you’ve mastered all the communication involved?
when my brother was playing with the Shepherd at home recently, he tended to give him more fusses and contact whenever the dog rolled onto his back. Not knowing the dog well, he thought that by showing his belly he was just asking for "more", whereas because I know how he works (knowing his expressions and cues), I could see he felt a bit overwhelmed by my brother's presence and stature, so I’d sometimes have to ask him to ease off a bit and give him some space.
This dog is also perfectly capable of rolling on his back specifically for belly rubs, his body language will just be slightly different.
There are plenty of little things like that which seem minor but, when they happen constantly, can create quite a lot of tension.
You just have to be aware of the dog's sensitivity. If he's already intimidated by a voice or someone's build (like with my brother), you're not going to crowd him even more. Whereas in another context, it would be absolutely fine...
These misinterpretations can apply to the dog's overall temperament. Buck (the Shepherd I mentioned) is a right loudmouth, and yet... he’s a big softie who needs to be made to feel really at ease before you use even the slightest bit of authority. It's the opposite with my female dog; she doesn't try to show off or make a scene, but she handles it perfectly well (and even needs it) when you're a bit firm with her sometimes.
So, it’ll take you a bit of time and observation to really get a handle on your little one, but you'll get there :-)
But you shouldn't just dive headfirst into doing things mechanically without any real understanding.
To go back to what Lorna was saying, it’s not that the idea of submission itself is "outdated", it’s more the fact of basing your entire training approach solely on it, and trying to achieve that submission by "mimicking" canine behaviours that we don’t fully master and where we’ve only cherry-picked the bits we wanted to hear.
From the submissive posture where a dog lies on its back in front of another, humans have taken away the idea that you have to forcibly pin a dog down on its back to make them submit and establish a hierarchy.
This ignores the fact that, quite often, this submissive posture is actually the dog’s own initiative within the context of an already established relationship. They are sometimes strongly encouraged by the other dog—notably by a grip on the side of the neck—but they are very rarely physically forced into it against their will if they are actively resisting.
It also ignores the fact that lying down is preceded by a whole host of precursor signals that a human won’t necessarily know how to send. Nor does it consider exactly when to stop the manoeuvre so that it actually makes sense to the dog.
Etc, etc.
The good news is that dogs are actually more than capable of understanding "human" language when it’s introduced methodically, and there’s no need to try and "mimic dogs" when there’s a real risk of it being misinterpreted.
I understand it’s upsetting to be told your vet isn’t qualified in dog behaviour, but the reality is that few are, and there is a surprising lack of interest in the subject within the profession. Having an interest in "alternative methods" is by no means a guarantee of critical thinking.
What your vet advised you to do is known as an "alpha roll". Alpha rolls do indeed happen between dogs, but they look nothing like the human imitation that has come from it (a forceful manoeuvre where the human doesn't know when to "release the pressure", as explained above). It’s also quite rarely seen between an adult dog and a puppy, as adults are generally incredibly patient with pups. You aren't a dog, and by trying to "speak dog" like that without mastering the subtleties of their language, you simply risk communicating things that are totally incomprehensible to your puppy and stressing them out.
Keep in mind that your dog is still a baby and is still developing. You say that what you’ve put in place isn’t working, but it’s perfectly normal that it doesn’t work straight away.
Hi Constanze,
Don’t stress too much, you’ll get there!
For now, just try to avoid any confrontations with your puppy until lockdown is over and you can get some more hands-on support. In the meantime, keep observing him and look into things like calming signals (they’re really useful).
Personally, I don’t think submission is "outdated" at all—that’s not really the issue, which is what I was trying to say earlier. Submitting, pinning them down, scruffing them, holding their muzzle, or snapping... dogs do all of these things with each other. I’m just emphasising how important it is to have a thorough understanding of canine communication before trying these techniques as a human. So, as this is your first puppy, it can be a bit hit-and-miss.
Hi everyone,
We are completely lost right now! Our vet is young and very much into alternative methods (homeopathy, aluminium-free vaccines, etc.) and you’re telling me that she’s having us use old-fashioned techniques. The thing is, methods like ignoring him or putting him in isolation just aren’t working.
To answer the question about playtime, we offer to play with him every time he’s awake. Fetching a ball, tug-of-war with a rope, throwing a Kong. Games of chase. Going through a tunnel. A water bottle filled with rice. A snuffle mat. (The last two he mostly does on his own while we keep an eye on him). The sessions don’t last long, maybe about five minutes, because he gets bored and goes to lie down in a corner.
As for walks, we take him out in the morning and late afternoon for a 'long' walk of 20 to 30 minutes at his own pace, plus morning, midday, evening, and late-night toilet breaks. Is that too much? Or not enough? We’ve been a bit slack with commands (except for 'sit', 'come', and 'drop it'). Regarding cuddles, since he’s been biting us, we mainly give them when he’s calm or lying on the floor.
As for where he sleeps, he never uses his bed; he just sleeps anywhere on the tiles—in the middle of the room, sometimes in the open-plan kitchen, under the table, next to the sofa, right next to his bed... Should we be getting him used to sleeping in his bed, and if so, how? I get the impression he just prefers the cool floor...
Is he trying to be the boss? Personally, I think it’s more that he’s pushing his boundaries, especially if there aren't any in place (you really need to set some, as boundaries are reassuring for them). At the same time, I think he’s probably more "preoccupied" with managing his own emotions—a bit of stress or tension, particularly in the evening. He’s likely rubbing up against you because of that, at least in my opinion. He isn't actually processing what you’re trying to tell him, especially if it’s not adapted to his level of understanding or his current emotional state...
If you aren't walking him enough or going to enough varied places, then yes, you definitely need to change your approach.
Regarding the crate, I also think it’s possible he’s still got a few "hang-ups" from it.
To lower his anxiety levels, focus on building a good relationship with him. I can’t remember if you’ve already said: what do you actually do together at home? Do you have play sessions? What sort? How long for? What time of day? Does he get some rest during the day? Do you give him long cuddles? Does that happen when he comes to you, or do you call him over for it? It would be helpful to have a bit more detail about his relationship with everyone in the family.
I take it he isn't seeing any other dogs because of the lockdown? Do you have any friends with dogs so he can meet some when you're able to?
