Puppy getting way too hyper with children

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Anonymous user Icon representing the flag French
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Hi everyone,

I'm brand new here and I can't seem to find any advice for my specific question.

I’ve always had dogs and horses (my original profession) and I’ve never had any training issues until now lol 🤷.

I’ve had a little 2.5-month-old Border Collie x Bernese Mountain Dog cross for two weeks now. She listens to me perfectly, is starting to respond well to clicker training, and is beginning to let me know when she needs to go out for her business...

BUT she’s so social and happy (her name is Joy, which probably doesn’t help!) that she goes absolutely mental with all children. She has no self-control; she nips (with those puppy teeth it feels like getting a piercing), jumps, yaps, growls, and really fights back when she's restrained... She sees loads of kids four times a day (I live right opposite the school bus stop), and my 7-year-old daughter is actually very gentle with her—no over-exciting games, no carrying her around, and she's not allowed on the sofa. She even takes an active part in the training (walks, toilet training, clicker sessions, etc.). To Joy, children aren’t figures to respect but playmates at the same 'hierarchical' level as her.

As I only use positive reinforcement training, what advice could you give me so that Joy learns to be as gentle with children as she is with adults?

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    Anonymous user Icon representing the flag French
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    Hi everyone, Joy had her educational play session on Friday evening with the kids. Since then, all the children have been making sure not to overexcite her when they get off the school bus, and Joy has calmed down a lot with them. She’s still over the moon to see them arrive, but she’s hardly nipping at them at all now and, most importantly, she actually listens to their "no". I think the "circle game" especially helped to teach and involve the children in the pup’s training; they’re getting less worked up with her, and it’s those daily repetitions of the kids staying calmer that are really working. Of course, the puppy picked up the game quickly, but she was trying her luck again the next day lol – a puppy doesn't just learn everything for life in one go! 😉 The best part is that even when I’m not there, she now listens to my daughter’s "no". This little game was almost more useful for the kids, making them realise that if they’re "serious", dogs will actually listen to them. It turned out to be a great training session for the local village kids too! 👏 Thanks for your advice.
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    Anonymous user Icon representing the flag French
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    Fair enough, I see your point better now, so I reckon we’re on the same page then. Anyway, I hope Lili-joy manages to get her issue sorted. Thanks for explaining ;)
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    Humeur-De-Chien
    Humeur-de-chien Icon representing the flag French
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    First off, I don’t do dog training. Not only is it not my job, it’s definitely not something I believe in. In my reply to @Lili-joy, I was simply explaining one of the most common methods used in training: operant conditioning through positive reinforcement and negative punishment. That doesn’t mean it’s the method I use. In fact, my own approach to dogs is worlds apart from that. That’s what I was trying to explain – perhaps a bit clumsily – when talking about the difference between training methods and the systemic approach taken by behaviourists.
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    Anonymous user Icon representing the flag French
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    "The problem is that you have ONE method but MANY different dogs. What works perfectly for one might not work at all for another." "Our approach is systemic. This means we don't look at the dog as an isolated case that just needs 'fixing'." I'm not sure I quite follow what you're saying. What I'm gathering is that you think it's a shame not to have various methods tailored to each individual, but at the same time, you’re still using the same style of training? I think I must have missed something along the way, could you explain it to me please? :)
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    Humeur-De-Chien
    Humeur-de-chien Icon representing the flag French
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    The issue is that you have ONE method but multiple DIFFERENT dogs. What works wonders for one might not work at all for another. I’m a bit biased, but this is where dog behaviourists usually make all the difference. Our approach is systemic. This means we don’t just look at the dog as an isolated case that needs "fixing". We look at all the factors at play within a system made up of several individuals (including the dog). All these variables affect the balance of that system (which we often call homeostasis or even social homeostasis). By understanding these factors, we can figure out—and help you understand—what’s causing things to go out of kilter. A lot of dog trainers these days use positive reinforcement and negative punishment. Essentially, this method encourages a dog to repeat a behaviour by adding a stimulus (positive reinforcement) and aims to reduce or stop a behaviour by taking one away (negative punishment). In this context, "positive" and "negative" just mean adding or removing something; they don't mean "good" or "bad". This can be very effective for non-natural learning, often referred to as operant conditioning. However, when we’re building on the learning already started by the mother, the littermates, and other dogs during a puppy’s early development, we call it natural learning. This includes things like socialisation, developing independence, and self-control. To really get this, you need a bit of ethological knowledge (the science of animal behaviour) to understand how these lessons are taught within the species and how their cognitive abilities develop. Methods can vary wildly depending on the environment, the individuals involved, the context, and even the dog’s mood. That’s why a systemic approach is so important to work out what the dog can learn, how, and when. If you’re told to just ignore your dog every time they do something you don’t like, it doesn't actually tell you *why* they’re doing it, how to read them, or how to react based on the situation. After all, one behaviour can look exactly like another—barking, for instance—but it might mean something completely different depending on various factors. If your response is always the same, then it’s bound to be the wrong one eventually.
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    Anonymous user Icon representing the flag French
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    I’m all for positive reinforcement, but not to the extreme. I see too many trainers who have great control over their dogs, but as soon as there isn’t a toy or a treat involved, the dog just ignores everything they’re told.

    I’m happy to see people using clickers, treats, and so on... but giving them a fuss and using a kind tone of voice is often forgotten. A little treat every now and then makes everyone happy, for sure ;)

    But you have to realise that letting "the dog rule the roost" isn’t a good idea either. Life isn't all sunshine and rainbows, and while violence is always counter-productive, you need to know when to put your foot down sometimes by simply being firm, rather than just constantly stuffing them with food...

    As for the Tervueren, they often look "less scary" than a Malinois, even if they’re still quite striking. Their coat softens their look considerably. You often notice that Tervuerens are more timid and skittish than Malis, but I find them gentler too. In any case, a cracking breed ;)

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    Anonymous user Icon representing the flag French
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    Favilla: Generally, I’m not a huge fan of the Malinois look; I find them a bit too "imposing", but I absolutely love their temperament. Your dog is truly stunning! I’m just discovering this variety: the long coat really softens their appearance, which perfectly reflects their incredibly docile and gentle nature.

    I’ve definitely learnt something new today.

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    Anonymous user Icon representing the flag French
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    Nah, nothing was taken the wrong way at all – quite the opposite! I’m a right stubborn mule, but reading both your opinions and seeing how they match up has really made me rethink things. 😉

    To poke a bit of fun at myself: I was definitely living in a bit of a dream world 😳, but you’ve got to be realistic. Using "no", as long as it’s not over the top, is necessary, if only for safety reasons further down the line.

    I’ve always used clicker training and positive reinforcement as a support when my pets had specific struggles, but with traditional training as a foundation. With this puppy, I wanted to go "by the book" 🤭 and use that technique exclusively, but I’m quickly realising (thanks to your advice as well) that it’s just not enough on its own.

    I’m going to give your suggestions a go and I’ll keep you all posted on how we get on.

    Thanks so much.

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    Anonymous user Icon representing the flag French
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    "Is the Tervueren the breed you've got in your avatar? I've never heard of them; they look like a long-haired Malinois."

    Yes, that’s my Tervueren in the photo. He’s a Belgian Shepherd, just like the Malinois. In France, they’re considered the same breed but a different variety. There are four in total: the Malinois, the Groenendael (black), the Tervueren (fawn or grey), and the Laekenois (rough-haired).

    Aaaand there's the Schipperke too—they’re tiny and all black, and also a shepherd dog of Belgian origin.

    Personally, to stop a behaviour or give a correction, I click my tongue (the way you do to get a horse to move). Sometimes I say "OI!", sometimes "NO", but in any case, I use a very deep, sharp tone and I stay completely still. Usually, everything stops pretty easily.

    By the way, I just wanted to say that you need to tell the children to ignore her when she gets over-excited. It doesn't matter if they carry on playing together, but the "no" must come from the owner, otherwise it won't have much of an impact, if any.

    When I mentioned putting the dog into a sit, use a treat to help you. The dog will focus on you, forget about the kids for a moment, and then you can reward her.

    I'm struggling to understand how what I said was seen as negative. Do you really think it’s such a big deal to use a negative marker? If your pet ever displays really bad behaviour, you’ll be glad they know what it means, believe me...

    The way I see it, with this method, the dog calms down and gets a reward. Sure, she’s frustrated at not being able to play for an extra 30 seconds, but so what? she forgets it instantly and can go back to playing straight after.

    It feels like people have just repeated exactly what I said, but changed the words to make it sound "nicer". I don't see how my advice wasn't "positive". Maybe I phrased it badly—to be fair, it was past midnight when I wrote it, so...

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    Anonymous user Icon representing the flag French
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    From reading your replies, I don’t think positive-only training is enough on its own. I’ve used it quite a bit in the past, but never 100% of the time—usually more as a supplement. If I add a "no" when I turn my back (since she actually listens to me), she’ll eventually be able to associate it with the kids saying "no". Your idea sounds pretty good. Even though Joy is very sensitive, it shouldn't traumatise her; I think you’re right. And as for your idea of a game with a group of kids... I think it's absolutely BRILLIANT!!! 👏 I’m thinking of organising a game with the kids in a circle around Joy. They’ll play calmly with her, and then when she gets a bit hyper, the kids have to turn their backs, stay calm and say no... and every time Joy jumps up or nips at one of them, that child has to leave the circle. It’ll be like an "educational Tag" for the kids and a great training session for my girl. (I’ll just need to make sure I’ve got a box of plasters ready for any puppy-tooth piercings on their calves 😝). What do you think?
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